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	<title>Comments on: Postmodern databases</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.xaprb.com/blog/2010/06/12/postmodern-databases/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.xaprb.com/blog/2010/06/12/postmodern-databases/</link>
	<description>Stay curious!</description>
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		<title>By: Stephen Touset</title>
		<link>http://www.xaprb.com/blog/2010/06/12/postmodern-databases/#comment-18417</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Touset</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 20:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xaprb.com/blog/?p=1893#comment-18417</guid>
		<description>Seems like it ought to be called a &quot;relativistic database&quot;, since the &quot;truth&quot; returned might be different yet equally valid for two observers. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems like it ought to be called a &#8220;relativistic database&#8221;, since the &#8220;truth&#8221; returned might be different yet equally valid for two observers. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.xaprb.com/blog/2010/06/12/postmodern-databases/#comment-18414</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xaprb.com/blog/?p=1893#comment-18414</guid>
		<description>The thing that bugs me about the &#039;NoSQL&#039; name is that it seems to lump together &quot;relational vs key-value/object store&quot; and &quot;centralised vs distributed&quot; as one and the same distinction. They&#039;re not.

Databases based on the relational model can be distributed, &#039;post-modern&#039; as this guy puts it, too.

There&#039;s some interesting work by logician/comp-sci/AI folks in this area, applying epistemic (and other modal) logics to multi-agent knowledge base scenarios, but I think it got a bit forgotten about because of its association with AI (think: lots of robots going around gathering knowledge which may or may not be consistent with eachother) rather than more mundane things like distributed relational databases.

Here&#039;s a course I remember taking on the subject, which might interest anyone who thinks &#039;post-modern&#039; databases or models of knowledge are interesting: http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/teaching/courses/multiagent/index.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing that bugs me about the &#8216;NoSQL&#8217; name is that it seems to lump together &#8220;relational vs key-value/object store&#8221; and &#8220;centralised vs distributed&#8221; as one and the same distinction. They&#8217;re not.</p>
<p>Databases based on the relational model can be distributed, &#8216;post-modern&#8217; as this guy puts it, too.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s some interesting work by logician/comp-sci/AI folks in this area, applying epistemic (and other modal) logics to multi-agent knowledge base scenarios, but I think it got a bit forgotten about because of its association with AI (think: lots of robots going around gathering knowledge which may or may not be consistent with eachother) rather than more mundane things like distributed relational databases.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a course I remember taking on the subject, which might interest anyone who thinks &#8216;post-modern&#8217; databases or models of knowledge are interesting: <a href="http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/teaching/courses/multiagent/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/teaching/courses/multiagent/index.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert Hodges</title>
		<link>http://www.xaprb.com/blog/2010/06/12/postmodern-databases/#comment-18410</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Hodges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 05:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xaprb.com/blog/?p=1893#comment-18410</guid>
		<description>In Baron&#039;s defense (not that he needs much for introducing an entertaining issue) saying there&#039;s no such thing as objective truth is the same as saying there is no unified frame of reference.  That&#039;s the essence of distributed systems that contain state as shown in Lamport&#039;s 1978 paper &quot;Time, Clocks, and the Ordering of Events in a Distributed System.&quot;  

Perhaps a more pertinent problem with Dr. Hipp&#039;s characterization is that it only applies to systems based on eventually consistent replication.  SimpleDB, Dynamo, and Cassandra allow updates in different locations and replicate them across copies.  Given enough time the copies become consistent but in the meantime different observers can get incommensurable answers to queries depending on where they are located.  By contrast, databases like MongoDB use master/slave replication, which means updates occur in a single frame of reference.  Observers at different locations may still get different answers to queries, but these are effectively from a single serialization history at different points in time. 

If you are looking for a less inflammatory way to summarize the differences, the important distinction therefore seems to be whether or not your data are globally serialized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Baron&#8217;s defense (not that he needs much for introducing an entertaining issue) saying there&#8217;s no such thing as objective truth is the same as saying there is no unified frame of reference.  That&#8217;s the essence of distributed systems that contain state as shown in Lamport&#8217;s 1978 paper &#8220;Time, Clocks, and the Ordering of Events in a Distributed System.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Perhaps a more pertinent problem with Dr. Hipp&#8217;s characterization is that it only applies to systems based on eventually consistent replication.  SimpleDB, Dynamo, and Cassandra allow updates in different locations and replicate them across copies.  Given enough time the copies become consistent but in the meantime different observers can get incommensurable answers to queries depending on where they are located.  By contrast, databases like MongoDB use master/slave replication, which means updates occur in a single frame of reference.  Observers at different locations may still get different answers to queries, but these are effectively from a single serialization history at different points in time. </p>
<p>If you are looking for a less inflammatory way to summarize the differences, the important distinction therefore seems to be whether or not your data are globally serialized.</p>
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		<title>By: Kin Lane</title>
		<link>http://www.xaprb.com/blog/2010/06/12/postmodern-databases/#comment-18409</link>
		<dc:creator>Kin Lane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 05:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xaprb.com/blog/?p=1893#comment-18409</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t much care for NoSQL or Postmodern Databases.  Let&#039;s keep trying guys.  We can come up with something that better reflects what is happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t much care for NoSQL or Postmodern Databases.  Let&#8217;s keep trying guys.  We can come up with something that better reflects what is happening.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.xaprb.com/blog/2010/06/12/postmodern-databases/#comment-18408</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 03:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xaprb.com/blog/?p=1893#comment-18408</guid>
		<description>Jeff:

&gt; The possibility of such divergent local views is most often and most accurately compared to relativity

It&#039;s not to say that there is no objective reality, merely that since our observations of reality must be subject to relativity then how could our modeling of reality be any different?

See http://constc.blogspot.com/2009/03/relativity-of-simultaneity.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff:</p>
<p>&gt; The possibility of such divergent local views is most often and most accurately compared to relativity</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not to say that there is no objective reality, merely that since our observations of reality must be subject to relativity then how could our modeling of reality be any different?</p>
<p>See <a href="http://constc.blogspot.com/2009/03/relativity-of-simultaneity.html" rel="nofollow">http://constc.blogspot.com/2009/03/relativity-of-simultaneity.html</a></p>
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